{"id":2563,"date":"2024-02-02T10:24:41","date_gmt":"2024-02-02T02:24:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/staging.limlogesmasters.com\/?p=2563"},"modified":"2024-02-10T15:15:10","modified_gmt":"2024-02-10T07:15:10","slug":"restoring-the-balance-at-work-podcast-series-episode-3-a-doctors-view-digitalising-healthcare-in-singapore","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/zh\/2024\/02\/02\/restoring-the-balance-at-work-podcast-series-episode-3-a-doctors-view-digitalising-healthcare-in-singapore\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201cRestoring the Balance at Work\u201d Podcast series-Episode 3: \u2018A Doctor\u2019s view \u2013 Digitalising Healthcare in Singapore\u2019"},"content":{"rendered":"<div data-elementor-type=\"wp-post\" data-elementor-id=\"2563\" class=\"elementor elementor-2563\" data-elementor-post-type=\"post\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<section class=\"elementor-section elementor-top-section elementor-element elementor-element-16670f50 elementor-section-boxed 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M113.4,10.2c1.2,0,2.2,0.9,2.2,3.2s-0.1,3.2-1.3,3.2s-3.1-1.4-3.1-3.2S112.2,10.2,113.4,10.2z&#039;\/%3E%3C\/svg%3E&quot;);\">\n\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-divider-separator\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t<section class=\"elementor-section elementor-top-section elementor-element elementor-element-5b24d900 elementor-section-stretched elementor-section-boxed elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-height-default\" data-id=\"5b24d900\" data-element_type=\"section\" data-e-type=\"section\" data-settings=\"{&quot;stretch_section&quot;:&quot;section-stretched&quot;}\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-column elementor-col-100 elementor-top-column elementor-element elementor-element-3e7a1cdd\" data-id=\"3e7a1cdd\" data-element_type=\"column\" data-e-type=\"column\">\n\t\t\t<div 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data-id=\"6de31e2c\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"author-box.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-author-box\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div  class=\"elementor-author-box__avatar\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/Lelia-1-1.png\" alt=\"Picture of Lelia Lim\" loading=\"lazy\">\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-author-box__text\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div >\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<h4 class=\"elementor-author-box__name\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tLelia Lim\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/h4>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-249c444d elementor-widget elementor-widget-theme-post-title elementor-page-title elementor-widget-heading\" data-id=\"249c444d\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"theme-post-title.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"elementor-heading-title elementor-size-default\">\u201cRestoring the Balance at Work\u201d Podcast series-Episode 3: \u2018A Doctor\u2019s view \u2013 Digitalising Healthcare in Singapore\u2019<\/h2>\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-7562199b elementor-mobile-align-center elementor-align-center elementor-widget elementor-widget-post-info\" data-id=\"7562199b\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"post-info.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<ul class=\"elementor-inline-items elementor-icon-list-items elementor-post-info\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"elementor-icon-list-item elementor-repeater-item-fab9d35 elementor-inline-item\" itemprop=\"author\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/zh\/author\/lelialim\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-icon-list-text elementor-post-info__item elementor-post-info__item--type-author\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-post-info__item-prefix\">By<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tLelia Lim\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t<li class=\"elementor-icon-list-item elementor-repeater-item-ba9c996 elementor-inline-item\" itemprop=\"datePublished\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/zh\/2024\/02\/02\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-icon-list-text elementor-post-info__item elementor-post-info__item--type-date\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-post-info__item-prefix\">,<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<time>2 2 \u6708, 2024<\/time>\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t<li class=\"elementor-icon-list-item elementor-repeater-item-afbda51 elementor-inline-item\" itemprop=\"about\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-icon-list-text elementor-post-info__item elementor-post-info__item--type-terms\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-post-info__item-prefix\">,<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"elementor-post-info__terms-list\">\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/zh\/category\/articles\/\" class=\"elementor-post-info__terms-list-item\">Articles<\/a>\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-element elementor-element-af2a0a1 elementor-widget elementor-widget-text-editor\" data-id=\"af2a0a1\" data-element_type=\"widget\" data-e-type=\"widget\" data-widget_type=\"text-editor.default\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"elementor-widget-container\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Episode 3<\/span><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">: \u2018<\/span><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">A Doctor\u2019s view \u2013 Digitalising Healthcare in Singapore\u2019\u00a0<\/span><\/span>featuring special guest Dr Ng Yih Yng, Director of the Digital &amp; Smart Health Office, Tan Tock Seng hospital; Deputy Clinical Director, Ng Teng Fong Centre for Health Innovation; Chief Medical Officer with the Ministry of Home Affairs, Singapore<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">(To watch and listen to the full podcast, click here: )<a style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #000000;\" href=\"https:\/\/bit.ly\/restoringthebalance\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone wp-image-15402\" src=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-300x300.png\" sizes=\"(max-width: 71px) 100vw, 71px\" srcset=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-300x300.png 300w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-100x100.png 100w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-600x600.png 600w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1024x1024.png 1024w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-768x768.png 768w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-12x12.png 12w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179.png 1280w\" alt=\"podcast, popular, shows-2665179.jpg\" width=\"71\" height=\"71\" \/><\/a><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Welcome to Lim-Loges &amp; Masters \u201cRestoring the Balance at Work\u201d podcast series looking at the challenges businesses face today and their impact on a disrupted economy. Lim-Loges &amp; Masters is a leading HR consultancy in Asia Pacific that helps organisations transform through their people through three distinct yet connected services, Disruption Management, Executive Search and Transition Management.\u00a0 Today\u2019s podcast is about ESG, rebuilding the employee landscape, people profit planets, and we are joined in the studio by founder and Managing Partner Lelia Lim.\u00a0 Lelia has 30 years of experience in the natural resources industry and executive search.\u00a0 Previously at Korn Ferry International for close to 13 years.\u00a0 Lelia, welcome!<\/em><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Welcome everybody. It\u2019s so good to be back again. And in the COVID era, we are seeing some signs of return to normalcy.\u00a0 We have a very special guest with us today, someone who understands what it is to handle emergencies, and boy, did we need to understand emergencies when COVID-19 struck us. This podcast episode looks at how digital technologies can drive transformation in the healthcare industry.\u00a0 It discusses the challenges and opportunities that exist and provides examples of how healthcare providers have succeeded in using digitalisation to improve healthcare delivery.\u00a0 And we will also talk about what\u2019s to come.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">According to McKinsey, digital health today impacts more than a billion lives.\u00a0 And estimates show that digital health in Asia could collectively create up to $100 billion in value by 2025, up from $37 billion in 2020.\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Now we have with us, Dr Ng Yih Yng, who is an extremely busy man, and we are privileged to have him in our podcast series on restoring the balance this 2022.\u00a0 Today, Dr Ng is busy in four roles. He is the Director of the Digital &amp; Smart Health Office for Tan Tock Seng hospital, as well as the Central Health region in Singapore.\u00a0 He is the Deputy Clinical Director of the Ng Teng Fong Centre for Health Innovation.\u00a0 And concurrently, he serves as the Chief Medical Officer with the Ministry of Home Affairs, Singapore, and oversees the healthcare policies across the HomeTeam Departments.\u00a0 He is trained as an emergency and public health specialist, and practices emergency medicine at Tan Tock Seng Hospital Emergency Department. He\u2019s a prolific publisher of scientific articles and lectures globally on Public Health, Digital Health and Emergency Medicine \u2013 when he can spare the time, and that\u2019s very little and few and far between!\u00a0 He teaches and conducts research with the Lee Kong Chian NTU School of Medicine, the Duke-NUS Prehospital Emergency Research Centre, and the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health in Singapore.\u00a0 So welcome, Dr Ng!<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Thank you Lelia, thanks for the introduction, it is a little bit long!\u00a0 Yes, glad to be here.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I know it\u2019s good to have you here with us.\u00a0 And thank you for your time again.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">You hold several portfolios Dr Ng, so tell us what you do, especially in leading the Digital &amp; Smart Health Office?\u00a0 What is the intent of this office?\u00a0 And how does it make a difference?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">OK, so I\u2019ll just do a quick run-through.\u00a0 I work as the HomeTeam Chief Medical Officer, which is sort of a policy and regulatory role, and we take care of the health of our HomeTeam officers, which are like the police, the prisons, immigration, but the larger part of my role is actually that of the Digital &amp; Smart Health Office.\u00a0 So in this aspect, we recognise that the hospital has many things going on, there are IT projects, there are efforts at digitalisation, however, there isn\u2019t really a true focus for these things.\u00a0 So the idea of setting up a Digital &amp; Smart Health Office is actually to look at all the common pains, the common challenges that everybody has, and look at how we can fundamentally simplify, streamline and improve the way we deal with all these developing digitalisation, digital transformation efforts.\u00a0 So in short, looking at the strategy, streamlining processes, enable the innovators to get on with the crux of the innovation, rather than to fight with a lot of issues with administration, funding issues, as well as some of the basic technology challenges that everybody has to deal with.\u00a0 So we want them to get on with the job while we take care of business for them.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">And how important is digitalisation in the healthcare industry in Singapore?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Oh, where do I start?\u00a0 I think we\u2019ve lived through COVID.\u00a0 And I think we are still living through COVID, and from that perspective, we all start to recognise more closely how important good health care is, how important an excellent health care system makes in the economy of a country and our ability to be able to get ourselves through this current COVID pandemic.\u00a0 We know that healthcare costs are definitely rising.\u00a0 We know that aging population is a challenge, especially in Singapore.\u00a0 We seem to have a fairly low birth rate plus coupled with increasing life expectancy in Singapore.\u00a0 So this creates a dependency ratio where there are fewer and fewer people taking care of more and more elderly.\u00a0 And with a rising average lifespan of a Singaporean, the demand for health care goes up.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">So, when you look at all these things rolled together, we know that the demand for healthcare services will continue to grow.\u00a0 And we also know that given time, technology, including health tech becomes more and more complex, more sophisticated.\u00a0 And we as citizens want more of it, we want to live better, we want to live longer, and we want to live well.\u00a0 So when we look at this, digitalisation then plays a very big part in helping us manage the increasing complexity of healthcare.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Absolutely necessary.\u00a0 Has covid, and you mentioned it, has COVID accelerated your transformation initiative, or provided a different perspective for you?\u00a0 How has it affected dealing with any future pandemics, for example?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think everybody, COVID is something that no one can escape from.\u00a0 And we\u2019ve all had our own run-ins from getting COVID or knowing someone who\u2019s got COVID.\u00a0 And even when you\u2019re not directly affected, COVID has made its impact felt in all sectors of society, whether it is you taking public transport, your ability to go out and have lunch or dinner, your ability to meet up with friends, or even if you have elderly parents, how you take care of them at home, or if they are going to a hospital.\u00a0 So there isn\u2019t a single person who can say that they are not affected by COVID in the last two years.\u00a0 How this has changed us fundamentally as a healthcare industry is that we have had to accelerate many of the plans that hospitals have talked about and often never had the risk perception to say that we wanted to do it.\u00a0 Take Telehealth, for example, there\u2019s always this perception that Telehealth may not be as good as running healthcare services in person.\u00a0 So this has been that long-standing challenge that we\u2019ve always seen Telehealth from a regulatory perspective to be maybe slightly less good.\u00a0 And because when we view it as a like-for-like kind of service, we are not prepared to do it in a big way.\u00a0 But now that when COVID hit all of a sudden, we have no choice, coming together and seeing a person face-to-face and with the risk of catching COVID, suddenly Telehealth becomes super attractive.\u00a0 Most of the upside without the downside of being able to transmit COVID or catching COVID from someone is a massive bonus.\u00a0 So suddenly, this whole risk perception shifts to the other direction.\u00a0 And that has helped the adoption for things like Telehealth, virtual services, even e-payment.\u00a0 No one wants to exchange dollar notes or or take coins anymore, because you don\u2019t know what\u2019s on the coin or what\u2019s on the dollar note.\u00a0 And it\u2019s not just us, you go to the Hawker centre, just about every Hawker centre selling a plate of chicken rice is prepared to use Grab Pay, PayNow, Paylah or whatever pay system there is.\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Contactless systems, I know!\u00a0 Amazing. Yes, the rate adoption is extremely high now across Singapore.\u00a0 So digital transformation, as you know is more about people, right?\u00a0 At the end of the day, you talk about risk, but it\u2019s that perception of risks, which is very people-oriented.\u00a0 And it\u2019s more about new ways of working than it is about the technology itself.\u00a0 The technology has been there, it was a question of us accepting it and using it.\u00a0 So it requires organisational changes that are customer-centric, backed by leadership, driven by radical challenges to corporate culture, and the leveraging of technologies that empower and enable your employees.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">So why was the transformation programme that you drove absolutely necessary?\u00a0 Who does it impact?\u00a0 Tell us a bit more about the smart hospital, the smart campuses, the smart community we\u2019re trying to create.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:\u00a0<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think fundamentally, when you look at Singapore as a country where manpower is really a premium, we just do not have that many people in the country.\u00a0 If you look at when you couple this with surge of demand for healthcare services, we know, it\u2019s always going to be difficult to be able to meet those demands.\u00a0 At the same time, we also recognise that there are many things that we do today that are repetitive, that are potentially replaceable, with self-service, virtual services, and many other ways of being able to meet those needs without the man in the loop.\u00a0 So we recognise that through digitalisation, and also health technology, there are many things that patients could really be able to manage through the use of health technology.\u00a0 So whether it is remote monitoring, whether it\u2019s self-service booking, access to services, to obtain information, or make choices, for example, when is your appointment, for example, we really don\u2019t need to wait on the wait on the phone for 15 minutes to get hold of a person, for example, just to change an appointment.\u00a0 So many of these things actually decompresses some of that demand.\u00a0 It also at the same time drives up patient satisfaction \u2013 I could do this at 2am in the morning and I don\u2019t have to be upset that the hospital doesn\u2019t have an operator waiting for my phone call at 2am.\u00a0 I can do it at any point of time somebody picks it up, changes the appointment and sends me a message saying, OK, now your new appointment is the date that you really wanted to be.\u00a0 I don\u2019t care the reason what it is or why you wanted that day.\u00a0 But you get the date that you really wanted, because you could see what is available to you.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes at the end of the day, it has to impact people in order to make a difference.\u00a0 And maybe you can share with us some examples out there, not just limited to Singapore but across Asia, some examples of successful digitisation in health care, that you think have been extremely effective, especially in emergency response.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think there are definitely some things that we can share.\u00a0 For example, when we look at our own examples of digitalisation, for example, one of the things I did when I was in the Singapore Civil Defence Force was that we created a mobile app, it was called the My Responder mobile app.\u00a0 It is very simply Grab or Uber for CPR and getting an AED, which is an Automated External Defibrillator.\u00a0 So the idea of this was that it was like micro volunteering, you find people who are trained to do CPR, use an Automated External Defibrillator.\u00a0 And you let them know that if somebody called 995, about a person in cardiac arrest, if they are within a 400 metre radius and able to get there would be alerted by the 995 operations centre.\u00a0 And if they are free, they are available, they could run in there, maybe within about 2-4 minutes, help to render aid and continue to perform chest compressions until the SCDF comes by with a fire biker who is an EMT, an emergency medical technician, who will take over from this person, and then followed by ambulance with a paramedic, that would be able to offer advanced assistance, pre-hospital care, and then transport the patient to the hospital.\u00a0 So, for a person volunteering, you may be only called up maybe once or twice a year.\u00a0 But when you get called up and you\u2019re able to help, you could potentially save a life.\u00a0 It\u2019s not a lot of commitment, all you need to do is download an app.\u00a0 And at the same time, it meets a very particular and very powerful need, you see, and that saves a life.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">So I think we need to find the kind of use cases that leverages on digitalisation and unlocks a certain value.\u00a0 And that is just one very niche kind of example, but I do believe that in healthcare, there are many other examples.\u00a0 To me, where I think the value would be is that mobile apps have an amazing ability to help people understand health information.\u00a0 That\u2019s a fundamental gap in many Asian societies.\u00a0 Most of the time, looking at maybe the generation before me, my parents or the grandparents, is a generation of people who trust that the doctors know everything \u2013 the doctor tells me what I do, and then I do it.\u00a0 But we are starting to move to a generation where people want to be a lot more involved, they want to understand, they want to know what\u2019s going on.\u00a0 And then the venues for giving them good, sound, medical information, advice that is customised to them is not always available.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot of stuff on Google, there\u2019s really a lot of information. The problem is, it\u2019s always hard to figure out what\u2019s real, what is sound advice, what is relevant to their health situation.\u00a0 And I think that, essentially, is the challenge.\u00a0 So as a public health care institution, or even in our local health care system, I think our obligation is to be able to help people navigate their health, and their particular health, not just general health information, but health that is relevant to let\u2019s say, himself, or herself or myself, for example.\u00a0 And that\u2019s what we want.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes.\u00a0 And this is a side comment, I know that insurance companies today are getting increasingly engaged with hospitals in order to provide patients with more wellness programmes, and that means being very proactive and personalised, in engaging with that customer or that particular person.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I would even argue that you need to be more hyper-personalised and hyper-engaged.\u00a0 What do I mean by that?\u00a0 Because when you look at the insurance systems module, I think they tend to, some of them, most of them scratch the surface.\u00a0 Some of them may be able to move towards a more personalised model, like maybe you\u2019re a bit more sedentary, I\u2019m offering you a gym membership.\u00a0 We do want to get to the point where, because as a healthcare system, we will be able to see really on a very granular basis, your health issues \u2013 hypertension, diabetes \u2013 and we can offer you information guidelines about what would be the most effective things to do.\u00a0 And being able to give you, empower you to know exactly what are the things that are evidenced-based, what are the things that would help keep you in good health.\u00a0 Or if you have chronic illness, what can keep the illness at bay, under control, so that you have the life expectancy, you have the quality of life that you desire, in the long term.\u00a0 So it\u2019s not just understanding the health, but being able to navigate this health journey.\u00a0 Knowing the resources, knowing the correct interventions, and then being able to do these things and see, what is the impact.\u00a0 I mean, I want to know that let\u2019s say if you asked me to take this medication, I can see from the follow ups and the data that you are sharing with me that this seems to be working.\u00a0 Then for me getting the feedback as a user or customer, it is something that is very encouraging.\u00a0 So I know I\u2019m on the right path, and I should continue doing this.\u00a0 So this whole interactivity of data, seeing your health status, knowing the intervention, carrying it, and then after that, seeing the feedback that oh, it is working.\u00a0 That is reinforcing.\u00a0 And that is what keeps us on this healthcare journey.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Oh, no, this is exciting.\u00a0 I mean, you talk about this journey, and it can be exhausting.\u00a0 Unless you understand what it is to measure success or realise you\u2019ve been successful. So what have those successes meant in digitalising healthcare services in Singapore? How do you measure it?\u00a0 Maybe you can share your measurements of success.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think we\u2019re still in very early stages.\u00a0 And I think on the national level, you would have seen some of the initiatives being mentioned by MOH.\u00a0 We\u2019re talking about capitation of health care.\u00a0 I think Minister Ong Ye Kung has been talking about Healthier SG.\u00a0 So some of these buzzwords where we talk about capitation, we talk about how do we deliver long term value that\u2019s sustainable in health care.\u00a0 And MOH also has this vision.\u00a0 They call them the Three Beyonds.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve heard of it?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">No, please share.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">OK, I\u2019m not the originator.\u00a0 This is really from the Ministry of Health, but the Three Beyonds talk about moving beyond hospital to community because you don\u2019t want people to be in hospital, we\u2019re looking at sick care.\u00a0 You\u2019re only being taken care of when you\u2019re extremely ill.\u00a0 But you want to move the care to the community where people are being well managed in the community, you are at a stage where your diseases are under control.\u00a0 So beyond hospital, to community.\u00a0 And then the other one is beyond health care to health.\u00a0 So the model is different.\u00a0 You\u2019re not looking at health care, but you\u2019re looking at keeping people in the healthy status.\u00a0 So you want to go to the point where you\u2019re more proactive and preventive.\u00a0 And then the last one, and this probably, to me is the most important one and this is the clincher, which is beyond quality, to value.\u00a0 So why that is important is that when we look at quality as a single dimension thing, quality in a way, it\u2019s endless.\u00a0 We always want higher quality.\u00a0 But the truth is this, there is no way to have unlimited quality, you really do need to think about moving from quality to value based care, because there is dimension that money is not unlimited.\u00a0 Manpower is not unlimited.\u00a0 So how do we deliver the best care for the resources that we have?\u00a0 So we do need to see what is cost effective for the whole health care system.\u00a0 Because for every dollar I spend here, I\u2019m not spending it there.\u00a0 And and we do recognise that over time, the responsibility for expenditure and the responsibility for this value, it\u2019s not just government\u2019s responsibility, there\u2019s also a citizen component to it, because what we value for health, may be very different from what a doctor sees as quality.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Let me explain.\u00a0 So the doctor may say, based on these guidelines, this is the best quality of care, deliver X dollar, correct?\u00a0 But then, for you as a citizen, it may not always be what you value as an outcome.\u00a0 So for somebody to say, I will value, for example, if I have care for cancer, for example, and the cancer may not be treatable, the doctor may tell you that, hey, if you take all these drugs, you may be able to last for a year and a half, by going through chemo, radiotherapy, for example.\u00a0 But the patient may say, I may not value living for one and a half years with cancer, to me, I may want to have a good quality of life, be able to go through this without having to deal with chemotherapy, or radiotherapy.\u00a0 So from that perspective, the patient\u2019s own perception of what is value for him, or what is good outcome for him may be very different.\u00a0 He may not want endless visits to the hospital, he may want to be in good enough health to spend the time with his family, because he knows that just more time may not always mean better quality time.\u00a0 So I think when I look at hyper personalisation, and hyper customisation, it really depends on what your opinion of value is, what is your perception of quality?\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes, it\u2019s very subjective.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">It is indeed.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">We talk about successes, let\u2019s look a little bit at challenges.\u00a0 You were once quoted as saying that the raison d\u2019etre for an idea becomes much clearer when you get questioned, laughed at and rejected enough times.\u00a0 What have some of the challenges of digital transformation been in the healthcare landscape and how have you overcome them?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think that was something I said, doing some projects in the public sector.\u00a0 I think sometimes we do need to dare to dream, we do need to dare to be bold and ambitious.\u00a0 And in doing so, we often challenge the status quo.\u00a0 And in the process of doing that, I think there\u2019s always going to be people who are very sceptical about whether it\u2019s doable, because if it\u2019s never been done before, I think sometimes as a public sector, we tend to be a little bit more conservative to things a bit too radical.\u00a0 And this is something that I see across, but it doesn\u2019t have to be public sector because even at the hospital, and even when I see private sector, it is always a challenge.\u00a0 When we want to be a bit more risk positive, we want to take more risks, it will always meet with some pushback, because people are fundamentally afraid of change, especially radical change.\u00a0 So how do we start to engage in digital transformation?\u00a0 It\u2019s not an easy conversation and every time wherever you start these conversations, you always need to engage the stakeholders, you need to understand what their pain points are, you need to build social capital, I feel that\u2019s actually quite important.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Do you have an example to take us through it so that we can understand that pain you went through?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think often all these ideas with risk taking, you do need to get a sense of the organisational culture, what are OB markers, out of bounds markers, where the lines are drawn, you need to be cognisant of that, and how far beyond those lines you\u2019re prepared to stick your neck out or to step, because even though we always say we want to be prepared to fail \u2013 fail fast, fail quick, fail cheap, but that boundary for how far you want to lean out, it\u2019s very different in different organisations.\u00a0 So getting a feel of it talking to stakeholders is important.\u00a0 So at least you know what is it that people are comfortable, when it starts to become a little bit uncomfortable, and what are truly out of bounds for the organisation that we are really not prepared to go.\u00a0 So I guess, calibration is helpful.\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Building social capital and trust, I think it\u2019s a very important part of this whole innovation journey, because people need to believe that you have the chops to carry this out, that the risk you are taking is not reckless, that it is measured, and that you have the capability, you are able to demonstrate some success so that they can see that you are not just a lot of hot air.\u00a0 So, you must at the very least start to show that you have that credibility to carry out some of the ideas that you\u2019re doing.\u00a0 So I often try to start off with smaller projects, especially moving into a new space, to at least have the quick wins, so that people can see, they understand that some of the things that we are trying to do is possible.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">It helps to be able to change the mental model and the mentality and the attitudes to make people believe that we can take on a larger risk and also take on more aggressive sort of digital transformation projects.\u00a0 So we always start small, start quick, don\u2019t spend too much money.\u00a0 Otherwise, it\u2019s like when we talk about HR versus waterfall.\u00a0 You go into a waterfall project, you say, let\u2019s spend $2 million or let\u2019s spend $20 million at a shot, right?\u00a0 And do it over three years, let\u2019s see if it works.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think anyone is going to jump at that.\u00a0 If you say, hey, let\u2019s spend $5,000, let\u2019s test this out, you say OK, well, it\u2019s a bit of\u00a0 money, I\u2019m willing to write it off, you do these things, do the small ones, show that hey,\u00a0 we have a process, we are capable, we will be able to build on some of this.\u00a0 And once people start to get a sense that as a unit, we are able to achieve these targets, I think it creates the confidence for us to reach out a little further and then be a bit more ambitious over time.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">But how do you create that acceptance of failure?\u00a0 Obviously, there will be hiccups.\u00a0 And you talk about getting the social buy-in, the social engagement, the social support around you.\u00a0 How do you ensure that failure is accepted?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think this is a point that I don\u2019t know whether you call it a sore point.\u00a0 Maybe it\u2019s a point of debate.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Or reality!\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes, it\u2019s a reality.\u00a0 Every organisation that wants to be seen as forward looking will say yes, we want to fail fast, fail quick, fail cheap, we love failure, for example.\u00a0 So everybody says that, but the problem is that many organisations do not walk the talk.\u00a0 We say it, but we are not prepared to do it.\u00a0 So, that is a challenge that I find happens across many different sectors, we always say that we are prepared to fail, but when you tell them, OK, I would like to suggest that half my projects fail, then you see the reactions instantly, you will see, usually, typically, maybe the finance guy, the CFO, the face of will scrunch up.\u00a0 The COO, who\u2019s often \u2026 and the guys who are often like, hey, my projects should be 100% success.\u00a0 And if you\u2019re doing business as usual projects, or if you are dealing with budgets and finance, often this is not the risk attitude that you would have in the organisation in those roles.\u00a0 And it\u2019s a lot different when you go into innovation space.\u00a0 When the innovation guy says, hey, we want to be able to fail, often enough to show that we are really figuring out where the boundaries are.\u00a0 And we want to be cutting edge, we want to be disruptive.\u00a0 To be there you must be prepared to fail fairly frequently.\u00a0 So it\u2019s not easy, and also in the organisation, how do you say I want to manage ops, I want to manage projects that are 100% on time, 100% on budget, and then yet be very comfortable to suddenly wear a new hat that says, Hey, you guys, just fill 50%, don\u2019t worry, just try \u2013 throw it against the wall, see if it sticks.\u00a0 So it\u2019s not easy to wear two hats, and to have a split personality in that regard, and I think spinning off a unit that really focuses on innovation, sort of allows you to insulate some of this work, and then have people like us advocate for this.\u00a0 It becomes sometimes a bit more uncomfortable when some of these things interface with the regular hospital.\u00a0 And I think it\u2019s good that we have an innovation centre, because it makes it a little cleaner for the organisation to say, OK, this is business as usual or BAU.\u00a0 This is I expect, like 95% success rates, I expect budgets, that\u2019s fully utilised, I expect things to run like clockwork, then on the other side, where we are sitting doing the healthcare innovation, sure, we are prepared for you to try test this out.\u00a0 And then do all these things that we hear as buzz words \u2013 fail fast, fail quick, fail cheap.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">That\u2019s a good learning point.\u00a0 You\u2019ve said, keep it small, keep it very targeted.\u00a0 And then on the other hand, also create an insulated area where it\u2019s ring fenced, your risk is ring fenced and you call it an innovation centre, but it\u2019s really a safe space to fail, really.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think maybe one more point.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s really good to be able to be quantitative about some of these things, you see, because although we say it in concept, but if you don\u2019t really quantify, say hey, can you go to your senior management and say, I want a million dollars.\u00a0 And I would like to say that $500,000 is going to be flushed down the drain.\u00a0 Will you be prepared to say that?\u00a0 I think it\u2019s a very uncomfortable conversation.\u00a0 But what are we willing to do?\u00a0 See, if you say that I want my projects to be 80% successful, or $800,000 of these projects must be a resounding success.\u00a0 So this kind of calibrates for you what are your organisation\u2019s risk tolerances, because if you want it to be 80% successful, it\u2019s almost close to BAU, almost close to running regular operations.\u00a0 So there\u2019s not that much in terms of a tolerance for failure in the organisation and management assists that to you.\u00a0 So ultimately, it is really a policy and a risk perception and the risk appetite of the senior management and organisation, because I can go failing 80% of my projects if my C suite says no to that,<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">And having that conversation early enough.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes, for sure.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Let\u2019s look at the future little bit.\u00a0 What do you see as future expertise that will be necessary in the new world of health care?\u00a0 What are the skills you think are required in the new leaders for health care, Version 2.0 or 4.0, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s at now!\u00a0 What do the leaders of the future look like?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think there will be a lot of focus on design thinking, there will be a lot of focus on user experience, user interface.\u00a0 We keep talking about having, you see everyone looking at having CXO\u2019s, and people who are dealing with experience, customer experience and all that.\u00a0 We also talk a lot about HR skill sets, especially in technology.\u00a0 So I think this really is something that we need to think a lot more in MNCs and traditional settings and organisations that typically don\u2019t focus on that.\u00a0 So nowadays, when we start to build services, we want to demand a bit more upfront that the user experience and the user interface, it\u2019s part of the consideration when you are planning, when you\u2019re doing user acceptance testing, and that design of the services is not just producer centric, or even IT centric.\u00a0 In the old days it\u2019s always what the IT person wants, or what the IT person feels is easy or comfortable for him to build.\u00a0 After a while we moved the conversation to what the producers want.\u00a0 If the doctor says I want this, the nurse says I want that, but then a lot less consideration to the patient who is the one receiving the service.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes it\u2019s true.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">And we know why it\u2019s built this way.\u00a0 A lot of these things were built in the era where the resource limitation, and the constraint is the producer.\u00a0 The person who produces the service is the critical choke point.\u00a0 But over time, I think we are starting to see this shifting away, where a lot of value comes also from being able to co create, being able to personalise and also using technology, many things have become self-service.\u00a0 Like self-service booking, e-payments, electronic delivery, or home delivery of, let\u2019s say, medication.\u00a0 And then services can be virtualised, for example.\u00a0 So from that perspective, when you are able to do this, the dependency on a single doctor and nurse, as the choke point for the care has somewhat been alleviated when you can do these digital things well.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes. I agree, I suppose that also would eventually change the mindset of the producers themselves, that they\u2019ve got to be far more engaging in understanding some of the issues.\u00a0 Like you talked about that patient wanting a different value, producers also have to start appreciating that and prescribing the necessary approach for that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">So leaders of tomorrow, what will innovation continue to mean for healthcare leaders?\u00a0 More money in digitalisation, do you think we need to have far more public private partnerships happening?\u00a0 Do we need to start thinking more globally in terms of solutions, where our medical files can be shared across global platforms in order for any one of us to get the right kind of treatment?\u00a0 For example, a particular illness, not limiting ourselves to country or geography or specifics like that.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I think a quite pragmatic view to this about innovation, because I feel that maybe this is peculiar to Singapore.\u00a0 But I think this maybe a little bit exacerbated in Singapore that healthcare innovation I feel does not move as fast as innovation in FinTech, maybe even transport tech and the other tech sectors because healthcare data is very sensitive.\u00a0 And because of that, we often tend to be held back.\u00a0 And there are good reasons for it.\u00a0 Because we have, if you seen a little bit more of the industry, you will recognise that whenever there\u2019s a data leak exfiltration or hacking of a healthcare system, there are a lot of consequences.\u00a0 I mean, on top of the loss of trust, let\u2019s say if you have a hospital service that is held to ransom where for example, the hospital goes down.\u00a0 Patient safety is at stake.\u00a0 So I think there will be a lot of reckoning if such things happen.\u00a0 So we do need to think a lot about the health care services cybersecurity, that\u2019s one.\u00a0 You cannot own what you cannot protect.\u00a0 That\u2019s the truth of it.\u00a0 So I think, from a healthcare leader and the stakeholders, we do need to ensure that we can venture into cyberspace and into digital services, with a certain sense of assurance that the services are robust.\u00a0 So that\u2019s one.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">The second thing I thought that is important is that with the pace of healthcare innovation, healthcare leaders need to be very technology savvy, they need to be aware of these trends.\u00a0 And we do need to train people well, we need to train people to be comfortable with innovation and the very rapid acceleration of the pace of healthcare.\u00a0 And the third thing I feel that\u2019s important is that we need to actually look at the very different structure of healthcare.\u00a0 And that we need to groom the sort of people, and also bring in the sort of talent that will support a very digital hospital and healthcare ecosystem.\u00a0 I take an example, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve seen this or heard this onek, but Piyush Gupta, I think, said this of DBS.\u00a0 Today, I have more engineers than I have bankers in DBS.\u00a0 And it\u2019s true, it is an actual reality of DBS.\u00a0 You see that they have actually slowed down the opening of actual physical branches.\u00a0 And they have actually brought in a lot of technology in-house. And they have definitely hired data scientists, engineers, web developers, mobile app developers.\u00a0 And they have become more important to them than the customer service officer in the branch.\u00a0 And this is the reality that even as their services continue to expand, and they become more and more global, and they are serving larger volumes, it is not so dependent on the bank teller anymore.\u00a0 Even the money has disappeared, it\u2019s become virtual.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Yes, yes. That\u2019s true.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">I mean, when\u2019s the last time you\u2019ve gone to a DBS bank to put in money or withdraw money from them?<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Lelia Lim:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">That\u2019s true.\u00a0 And it\u2019s a bit scary and being more and more cashless, sometimes if you don\u2019t have the discipline, it goes very quickly as well!<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">This is this is a great conversation!\u00a0 I really thank you for your time today.\u00a0 Thank you for joining us.\u00a0 This has been a really good way of also closing off our series, we\u2019re in fact launching and moving on to the next quarter where we are launching an Asia White Paper.\u00a0 So this is the last podcast for our 2022 Restoring the Balance series.\u00a0 And next quarter, we will be speaking to Senior Chief Human Resource Officers in the region, on their top tips on reviving workplace success.\u00a0 So we want our audience to look out for it in December 2022 to give you a head start for 2023.\u00a0 And if any of you in the audience want to be part of that conversation, connect with us at\u00a0Lim-Loges &amp; Masters\u00a0on LinkedIn.\u00a0<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">Thank you, Dr Ng.\u00a0 And thank you everyone for dialling in today.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #ff6600;\"><span style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\"><em style=\"border: 0px; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;\">Dr Ng:<\/em><\/span><\/span><\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">You\u2019re welcome.<\/p><p style=\"font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; color: #000000; background-color: #ffffff;\">To watch and listen to the full podcast, and our previous episodes, click here:)<a style=\"border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #000000;\" href=\"https:\/\/bit.ly\/restoringthebalance\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-15403 alignnone\" src=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-300x300.png\" sizes=\"(max-width: 71px) 100vw, 71px\" srcset=\"https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-300x300.png 300w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-100x100.png 100w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-600x600.png 600w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-1024x1024.png 1024w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-768x768.png 768w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1-12x12.png 12w, https:\/\/limlogesmasters.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/podcast-popular-shows-2665179-1.png 1280w\" alt=\"podcast, popular, shows-2665179.jpg\" width=\"71\" height=\"71\" 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